Take the 2-minute tour ×
German Language Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for speakers of German wanting to discuss the finer points of the language and translation. It's 100% free, no registration required.

I see this in a job advert:

Gutes Verständnis von Netzwerken, Firewalls, Routern und Security

However if we used the genitive, that would have to be:

Gutes Verständnis Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security

Now I think that it can still be understood (if nothing else, by elimination), but my question is: is it better (where "better" means "clearer" or "more elegant"), in those cases where nothing but the undeclined noun is left, to stick to the "von + dative" form? Or is it equally understandable and nice for a native reader/listener?

share|improve this question
    
As Christian pointed out, the second form is illegal without an article, but the only possible article "der" changes the meaning drastically. (IMHO, see my comment) –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 17:57
1  
actually der is not the only possible article. one could also use "für" –  Vogel612 Dec 17 '13 at 18:16
2  
@Vogel612 Verständnis für Personen, Umstände, etc. ok, but "Verständnis für Firewalls"? Not really, this would back-translate to "emphaty for firewalls". As in the other case, the meaning is changed. –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 18:23
    
@ingo in diesem fall ist das rein technische Verständnis gemeint. hat mit Empathie überhaupt gar nichts zu tun. --> die Übersetzung wäre: "understanding for [...]" –  Vogel612 Dec 17 '13 at 18:24
    
@Vogel612 zugegeben, ich habe ein wenig übertrieben, aber dennoch geht "für" meiner Meinung nach hier zwar grammatisch, verfälscht aber, was OP sagen wollte. Können wir nicht einfach sagen, daß die Version mit "von" die bessere und üblichere ist? –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 18:27
show 3 more comments

4 Answers

up vote 5 down vote accepted

Zusätzlich zu bereits vorhandenen Antworten, ist es immer verständlich, wenn statt einem Artikel ein Adjektiv steht. Bsp:

Gutes Verständnis moderner Netzwerke.

Obwohl in kurzen Anzeigen der Ausdruck „Gutes Verständnis Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security“ gewissermaßen zu verstehen ist, ist dieser Satzbau ungrammatisch und folglich einfach falsch.

Wenn da kein Adjektiv (z.B. „Gutes Verständnis drahtloser Netzwerke“),
kein Pronomen (z.B. „Gutes Verständnis meines Netzwerks“) oder
kein Artikel (z.B. „Gutes Verständnis der Netzwerke“) steht,
braucht der Satz die Präposition von.

share|improve this answer
add comment

I would tolerate the second variant mentioned in the OP

Gutes Verständnis Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security

maybe if and only if in an advert, knowing that they want to save words (= $$ / €€) and used the terms "Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security" as an enumeration — loosely coupled to "Verständnis" without any gramatical context. It sounds a bit cheap though.

Usage of genitive without article is wrong. Fortunately, in the example everything is either plural or foreign words, so you can't detect a (false) genitive here anyway.

Usage of the "bestimmter Artikel" plus genitive here would be wrong unless you refer to a particular (kind of) networks etc. that you specified earlier (or later) — e.g. by mentioning a particular brand name.

share|improve this answer
add comment

Well, the correct genitive would be:

Gutes Verständnis der Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security

To me as a native German the genitive construction sounds more demanding like you have to know all existing types of networks etc. Or it might refer to certain types of networks that have been mentioned in the ad before.

Whereas the construction with von sounds like you have to know how networks work.

share|improve this answer
    
Well, the correct genitive /if/ the nouns were qualified with an article (and thus "von den Netzwerken" etc.). Here however the meaning is "networks in general", "firewalls in general" etc. To my (rigorously non-native) understanding, saying "der Netzwerke" restricts the intended meaning to a (perhaps wide) specific category or type of networks. Is that really the case in German? (perhaps I should open a separate question for this) –  karoshi Dec 17 '13 at 17:36
    
The genitive may be grammatically correct, but it is worth pointing out that it doesn't make sense in this case, because it implies some specific networks, routers etc. have to be know, like in "Gutes Verständnis der Router in Werk 3." whereas with the "von" only know-how about routers in general is asked for. –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 17:55
    
@Ingo: does that imply that a genitive construction would in this case be impossible? –  karoshi Dec 17 '13 at 18:07
    
@karoshi I'd say so, given that you want to say something like "Gutes Verständnis von Routern" or "Umfangreiches Wissen über Netzwerke". It's too general. However, you could say "Gutes Verständnis des SMTP Protokolls." It's something definite, you know, therefore the definite article is appropriate here. –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 18:12
    
@karoshi You could also say "Gutes Verständnis einiger/aller/mancher/seltener/gebräuchlicher/aktueller Netzwerke." if you insist on the Genitive. –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 18:15
show 2 more comments

I would not say, that "Gutes Verständnis Netzwerke, Firewalls, Router und Security" is illegal here, because this is part of an job advert. There are often incomplete sentences used, for example in enumerations. The understanding for native speakers would be the same as in the original text.

share|improve this answer
    
To me it would be almost incomprehensible. Now, this may not matter in a job market, where thousands of jobless network specialists are roaming the AfA, but it does matter when you compete with your advertising against other employers. –  Ingo Dec 17 '13 at 18:20
    
This is not part of a job advert, the actual job advert uses the "von" form. I was just wondering if genitive could be used here. –  karoshi Dec 17 '13 at 18:21
    
@Karoshi, yes, that I understood. But I thought that you want to use it in the same context. And that was for me a job advert. Then it is possible. –  Katja Dec 17 '13 at 18:25
    
@Ingo: Wo liegt für dich der Unterschied im Verständnis zwischen diesen beiden ersten Varianten? (Abgesehen davon, dass bei beiden nicht klar wäre, welche Kenntnisse nun genau gefordert werden. Aber das ist hier nicht die Frage.) –  Katja Dec 17 '13 at 18:28
1  
Das wird auch nicht deutlich mit dem Original, da es sich hier nur um einen Ausschnitt handelt, und wir den Rest von dem Text nicht kennen. Das Wort "von" macht hier dann letztlich keinen Unterschied mehr. Ob Bedingung oder Wunsch, müsste dann bereits vorab genannt worden sein, bspw.: "Erforderlich sind folgende Qualifikationen/Kenntnisse:" und dann eine Aufzählung in Stichpunkten. Und Stichpunkte werden üblicherweise nicht in ganzen Sätzen formuliert. –  Katja Dec 17 '13 at 18:46
show 3 more comments

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.