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Is only the use of dessen correct in the following sentences or would either welches or welchem also be acceptable in any of them? If so, why?

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, im Rahmen dessen ich dieses Buch lese.

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, während dessen ich dieses Buch lese.

Edit for clarity:

Which of these sentences means ‘Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Als Teil dieses Programmes lese ich dieses Buch.’ and is grammatically correct — even if it sounds weird — and why?

A) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, im Rahmen dessen ich dieses Buch lese.

B) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, während dessen ich dieses Buch lese.

C) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, im Rahmen welches ich dieses Buch lese.

D) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, während welches ich dieses Buch lese.

E) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, im Rahmen welchem ich dieses Buch lese.

F) Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, während welchem ich dieses Buch lese.

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  • I realize that the meaning of these two sentences might be different but I am only concerned with the grammar.
    – Lmis
    Jul 7, 2016 at 5:12
  • 1
    Note that the case of "dessen" and "welcher" is ruled by the preposition. während wants the genitive - You might see dative in places, but that is considered colloquial - So your examples using während with dative would in a strict sense be wrong.
    – tofro
    Jul 7, 2016 at 10:50
  • You apparently don't read answers well: The answer below clearly says "während" simply translates to while and does not imply a causal but rather a temporal relation. Why do you still ask for "während" and an obvious causal connection?
    – tofro
    Jul 7, 2016 at 14:10
  • @tofro Because that was part of the original question. I edited for clarification of the original question not to introduce changes to it. Thus it follows that all parts of the question are repeated. I think you will find that in the opening sentence I ask if I may change dessen for während. You tell me in your answer - among other things, that are not part of the question, but thank you for your efforts anyways - that no, I cannot.
    – Lmis
    Jul 7, 2016 at 15:57
  • In the last comment of mine it should read "if I may change dessen to welches or welchem"
    – Lmis
    Jul 7, 2016 at 16:31

3 Answers 3

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Quick Answer

Is only the use of "dessen" correct in the following sentences or would either "welches" or "welchem" also be acceptable in any of them? If so, why?

You can substitute dessen for welches and still have a grammatically correct sentence. You cannot change it to welchem though since that is the dative case. The difference between dessen and welches is that one is the genitive of der and the other of welcher whereas welchem is the dative of welcher so there is never a case (that I am aware of) where you can exchange welcher for welchem.

Also as @tofro noted während means while or during, so in the second sentence I would assume that you are reading the book at the same time as the course is being held whereas the first case does not imply that. For the purposes of your proposed substitutions, however, there is no difference as I explain below.

Explanation

In both sentences you wish to refer to Programm in the second preposition. The grammar becomes more clear if we just replace that reference with a repetition of Programm

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Im Rahmen des Programmes lese ich dieses Buch.

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Während des Programmes lese ich dieses Buch.

So if we now want to replace it with a welcher reference, we can rephrase it as a question.

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Im Rahmen welches Programmes lese ich dieses Buch?

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Während welches Programmes lese ich dieses Buch?

The meaning is of course changed, but we don't care, we are just the grammar police and the grammar is still fine. However, if we do your last proposed substitution and jam a welchem in there, we must assume that the case is dative because otherwise welchem could not occur.

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Im Rahmen welchem Programm lese ich dieses Buch?

Ich nehme an einem Programm teil. Während welchem Programm lese ich dieses Buch?

I don't think you would ever hear the first one. Unfortunately, some people forget all about the genitive in daily speech and you might just hear a variation of Während welchem

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Both are fine (with a bit of correction) and both work, but have different meanings.

Ich nehme an einem Projekt teil, in dessen Rahmen ich ein Buch lese

note I pulled dessen before "Rahmen". It was OK-ish what you had, but sounds better to me like that.

This sentence clearly says I have to read the book as part of the project.

"Welches" as a relative pronoun can be used to build similar phrases, but would normally simply replaced with "das":

Ich nehme an einem Projekt teil, [welches|das] erfordert, dass ich ein Buch lese

On "während/dessen":

Ich nehme an einem Projekt teil, währenddessen lese ich ein Buch

note here währenddessen is a single word, (this fact is one of the trickier things in German grammar that a lot of native speakers get wrong). It simply means "while". That means that there is no causal connection between me reading the book and the project, just a coincidence in time.

währenddessen is maybe not the most ideal choice here, as it is normally used to express "I'm wasting time while I wait" or two entirely unrelated processes happen at the same time.

Der Zug fuhr ein, währenddessen packte der Eisverkäufer seinen Stand zusammen.

So you don't even use "dessen" here - It's another word.

And, following guidot's comment, an ngram on "in dessen Rahmen" vs. "im Rahmen dessen":

enter image description here

And a further edit:

Your examples using während sometimes use the dative, sometimes the genitive. während does, however, rule the genitive. For some reason "...während welches..." does not go down well with me, even if it looks gramatically correct.

Using im Rahmen does only make sense to me used with the genitive es well.

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  • I disagree with pulling dessen, since I would consider im Rahmen dessen a fixed phrase. while dessen Rahmen in my opinion more tends towards the non-abstract meanng of Rahmen (as picture frame). Surely someone will provide a n-gram soon...
    – guidot ♦
    Jul 7, 2016 at 7:02
  • @guidot I'm afraid ngrams tends to disagree with you.
    – tofro
    Jul 7, 2016 at 7:14
  • "Ich nehme an einem Projekt teil, in dessen Rahmen ich ein Buch lese." would be the correct construction in one sentence. It can be split into two: "Ich nehme an einem Projekt teil. Im Rahmen des Projektes lese ich ein Buch." Imho this construction was shortened to "[...], im Rahmen dessen ich ein Buch lese." But that sounds odd. "in dessen Rahmen" sounds more sound ;)
    – user22338
    Jul 7, 2016 at 8:07
  • Thank you for your answer. However, I think my comment made clear that I am aware of the difference in meaning and I don't ask how to communicate anything. I care about the grammar. I wish to know by what rule of the German language it is, that people can or cannot say sentences like Ich nehme an einem Fest teil, Im Rahmen *welchem* eine Kuh gezeigt wird. It does not matter to me, what that means but only wether it is a gramatically correct - not necessarily senible sounding - statement and why
    – Lmis
    Jul 7, 2016 at 9:44
  • To clarify further, note, that I would like to know not if the example sentence are fine (I assumed that much, but thank you for verifying) but rather if they are still fine if I substitute the word "dessen" for something else. Like is Ich nehme an einem Programm teil, während welchem ich ein Buch lese also grammatically correct? Can I use dative case to refer to Programm there? Can I use other cases? Why or why not?
    – Lmis
    Jul 7, 2016 at 9:50
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Ich kenne den Ausdruck "im Rahmen…" nur mit dessen/derer und deren. Das sind Genitiv-Formen von der/die/das, die in dieser Satzkonstruktion als Relativpronomen benutzt werden. Sie verweisen zurück auf das Substantiv, mit dem sie im Genus und Numerus übereinstimmen müssen.

der Flohmarkt, im Rahmen [dessen] ich das Buch las…

das Programm, im Rahmen [dessen] ich ich das Buch las…

die Ausstellung, im Rahmen [derer] ich ich das Buch las…

Plural: Tests/Programme/Ausstellungen, im Rahmen [derer] ich las…

Würden auch Formen von 'welcher' gehen?'

Ich würde sagen nein, zumindest nicht in dieser Relativsatzkonstruktion, denn in der Funktion als Relativpronomen gibt es keine Genitiv-Formen von 'welcher'. (In der ursprünglichen Funktion als Fragewort/Interrogativpronomen dagegen schon.) Wenn eine Genitiv-Form von 'welcher' in der Funktion als Relativpronomen benötigt wird, kommt wiederum 'dessen/deren' zum Einsatz.

Überblick zur Flexion von 'welcher': einmal als Interrogativpronomen und einmal als Relativpronomen bei Canoo.net (auch im Duden Band 4 'Die Grammatik'.)

Zu der Liste von Beispielsätzen in der ursprünglichen Frage:

A) und B) sind korrekt.

C) bis F) sind grammatikalisch falsch.

Jedoch wird F) wahrscheinlich umgangssprachlich auftauchen, weil im Mündlichen der Dativ manchmal den Genitiv ersetzt. (Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod …)

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