l wonder, as a beginner in German, there's nouns separated by genders for the same as in die Katze /der Kater or die lernerin / der lerner. My question is what the plural form is for all, if ever, that includes both genders like simply saying cats in case there's like 2 cats out there one being female and one being male? I mean are the plurals also based on gender of the name? As in "die Lerner and die Lernerin-in"? l am confused.
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5I'm pretty sure you're overthinking this. In English we have "cat" (male/female) and "tomcat" (male only), and two males would be "tomcats", but there's no special word for one male and one female cat, it's just "cats". It just happens that the German Katze uses a feminine article; feminine does not imply female in German. The plural of Lernerin is Lernerinnen; that part you can get from a conjugation table.– RDBuryCommented Dec 26, 2022 at 13:09
2 Answers
The generic term is used to build the plural. Often, that's the masculine term. For example for professions. It's called generic masculinum.
But for example die Katze is a good counter example for generic femininum.
Ich mag meine drei Katzen. Es sind zwei Kater und eine Katze.
As you can see the plural of die Katze is used to describe the whole pack. But the plural of der Kater is used to tell it's two male cats in particular. An we have to tell from context that eine Katze is a female cat, and not one of unspecified gender.
In general, noun gender in German does not tell the gender of people or animals or plants. That's something you have to get used to as an English speaker. Only if the gender of the person or animal or plant is important, we mark it by using a different noun or by telling it explicitely.
Siehst du den Baum da? Er ist schon tausend Jahre alt. Es ist eine Linde, und sie heißt Kaiser-Lothar-Linde.
See what going on? The very same tree is first an er, than an es and finally a sie.
But we haven't yet told whether that tree is male or female! (Actually, this species is hermaphroditic. But German grammar does not care about that.)
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To make things more complicated, young animals are usually neuter, regardless of sex or adult gender. So das Kätzchen.– RDBuryCommented Dec 26, 2022 at 13:31
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1Btw, I think for plants the term is usually "monoecious", with "hermaphroditic" used mostly for animals such as snails.– RDBuryCommented Dec 26, 2022 at 13:37
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1I don't think "the very same tree" is really an es in the middle. In that place, "Es" is not a short way of saying "der Baum", but rather the "formal subject" that also occurs in statements like "Es regnet." Commented Dec 26, 2022 at 15:47
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You could put er, sie, es at that place. A back-reference to der Baum, a forward-reference to die Linde, or a dummy subject. At no point it indicates the gender of the tree. That's what I wanted to demonstrate with that example.– JankaCommented Dec 26, 2022 at 16:51
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1@userunknown "Da steht ein Mann auf der Kreuzung" - Es ist ein Verkehrspolizist.– tofroCommented Dec 27, 2022 at 15:06
This can actually be a loaded question. Traditionally, there's something called the generisches Maskulinum. This means in short, that for individuals whose gender is unknown or not relevant you would use the male form, as a kind of generalization. "Der Student" can be specifically a male student, or a student in general, regardless of gender.
The generisches Maskulinum is traditionally also used for mixed groups. So, "die Studenten" could be specifically a group of male student, or just a group of students. "Die Studentinnen" are specifically a group of female students.
But for some decades now, this tradition got challenged more and more. Many people consider it deprecatory to basically only mention the male individuals and assume that everybody else is tacitely included. This goes for female individuals as well as for anybody else who doesn't identify as male. It's seen as kind of "the males are the important ones that need to be explicitly mentioned, everybody else is gracefully allowed to consider themselves included". This is what the verb "mitmeinen", "to also mean" means:
Wenn ich "die Studenten" sage, sind "die Studentinnen" natürlich mitgemeint.
When I speak of "the (male) students", "the (female) students" are of course meant as well.
Because of that, people try to find more inclusive plural forms. There are several, not to say a lot, of suggestions. Some of those are
- listing both / all genders, like "Studentinnen und Studenten" (the gentleman lets the lady go first, compare "Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren")
- add the genders in brackets, like "Studenten (m / w / d)", with the letters denoting "männlich", "weiblich" and "divers" (the latter for "anybody else"). This is often seen in job offers and the like.
- a generisches Femininum, so that the female plural is seen as encompassing everybody else as well
- derivates from the verb like "Studierende" ("those who study").
But not everybody is very fond of those proposed changes. For example, people may fulminate in comment sections that in their eyes this "genderization" is not only completely unnecessary, but is also unaesthetic or even "destroys the German language". Compare people using "wokeness" as a derogatory term.
Regarding the two examples you mentioned, "der Lerner" and "die Lernerin" are not too commonly used in everyday German. As a native speaker, I actually had to look them up. Mostly, we would use a noun from the context of school or education like "der Schüler" / "die Schülerin" or "der Student" / "die Studentin". Or (see above) we would use a derivate from the verb, like "die Lernenden" ("those who learn / study"). The plural of "der Lerner" and "die Lernerin" is, according to Wiktionary, actually "die Lerner" and is used regardless of gender.
Cats are interesting in this regard because this is one of the not too many cases of a traditional "generisches Femininum". Similar to English, "eine Katze" can mean specifically a female cat, or just a cat regardless of gender. "Die Katzen" could be a group of female cats, or just a group of cats. For tomcats, we'd use "der Kater" in singular and "die Kater" in plural.
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1As you write, "Lerner" sounds a bit strange, here "der/die Lernende" is what I'd prefer anyway. Commented Dec 26, 2022 at 15:19
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3Die Aussage zum Mitmeinen ist tendenziös, falsch und unlogisch. Wenn es keine andere Allgemeinform als "Schwimmer" gibt, dann sind Männer nicht mehr oder weniger mitgemeint, als Frauen. Es sind die Nichtschwimmer, die nicht mitgemeint sind. Wenn Du speziell männliche Schwimmer markieren willst musst Du "männliche Schwimmer" sagen, denn aus der sprachlich männlichen Form folgt nicht, dass es Männer sind. Es kann nicht generisch und spezifisch zugleich sein. "Holger war der langsamste Schwimmer beim Schulwettbewerb" heißt, er war der langsamste insgesamt. Commented Dec 26, 2022 at 21:45
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1Absichtliches Falschverstehen ist ein schlechtes Argument. Im Tierreich ist die weibliche Grundform auch nicht selten (die Schlange, Taube, Ente, Gazelle) und auch sächliche (das Schwein, Gnu, ...) häufig. Commented Dec 26, 2022 at 21:47
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'Regarding the two examples you mentioned, "der Lerner" and "die Lernerin" are not too commonly used in everyday German. As a native speaker, I actually had to look them up.' - for the benefit of readers whose native language is not German, I think this needs to be put into perspective: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure what you meant to express here was that you had to look up whether those words are actually in use, not that you couldn't deduce on your own that "Lerner" means "someone who learns something". Commented Dec 29, 2022 at 7:04
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1@O.R.Mapper I meant to say that I had to look up that these words actually exist, meaning that they are in somewhat active use. Because on the first glance, "der Lerner" and "die Lernerin" sounded like made-up translations of the English noun "learner" to me. But somebody went and made a Wiktionary entry, so at least somebody is probably using those words. Commented Dec 29, 2022 at 9:37