Timeline for Is Gandalf really on 'du' terms with the Balrog? (Odd 'duzen' example)
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
20 events
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| Nov 15, 2023 at 0:41 | comment | added | Kritiker der Elche | It would be interesting to analyze when "Du" and "Ihr" are used in the German translation. I didn't read again the whole text, but it seems to me that Gandalf only uses "Ihr" when talking to really high-ranking persons like Elrond. The Hobbits, for example, are "geduzt". I can't judge whether this corresponds to the original English text (you vs. thou), but we can certainly say that Gandalf does not regard the Balrog as a high-ranking person. | |
| Dec 6, 2021 at 17:42 | comment | added | jez | "Darfst nicht" is not an improvement. To take a modern day example, there's a big difference between being told "you can't park here" and being told "you're not parking here". The former (whether with "can" or "may") merely states that a restriction exists. The latter carries greater menace, as it implies that the speaker (a) intends to enforce the restriction and (b) is confident enough of success to be able to predict your future actions. That menace, conveyed by the English "shall not", is lost somewhat in "cannot" ("kannst nicht") but even more so if you use "may not" ("darfst nicht"). | |
| Dec 6, 2021 at 16:47 | comment | added | J... | +1 Gandalf and the Balrog, being both Maiar, are basically akin to something like feuding brothers, so the familiar form, of course, makes the most sense. | |
| S Dec 6, 2021 at 15:29 | history | suggested | psmears | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Improve wording and grammar
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| Dec 6, 2021 at 14:50 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Dec 6, 2021 at 15:29 | |||||
| Dec 6, 2021 at 9:59 | comment | added | Holger | @JFBM “I’m disinclined to acquiesce to your request of passage over this bridge. I’m afraid if you insist on continuing on this path, it could lead to an argument.” | |
| Dec 5, 2021 at 23:22 | comment | added | Spencer | @KritikerderElche Yes; here are some examples. | |
| Dec 5, 2021 at 23:20 | comment | added | Kritiker der Elche | @Spencer Does Tolkien use "thou" anywhere in his book? | |
| S Dec 5, 2021 at 21:09 | history | suggested | cigien | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
grammar fixes
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| Dec 5, 2021 at 20:58 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Dec 5, 2021 at 21:09 | |||||
| Dec 5, 2021 at 16:24 | comment | added | Spencer | @KritikerderElche It is interesting that Tolkien didn't use the archaic informal pronoun "thou" here | |
| Dec 5, 2021 at 14:56 | comment | added | JFBM | Alternative script: Gandalf: "Du ka... sorry... Sie können nicht vorbei!" Balrog: "Well, okay then, if you say so politely. Have a nice trip." | |
| Dec 5, 2021 at 12:43 | comment | added | Spencer | I was under the impression that 'du' might be used as a deliberate form of disrespect. Gandalf certainly doesn't care if he angers the Balrog or not; that ship has already sailed. | |
| Dec 5, 2021 at 2:10 | comment | added | RDBury | @Kritiker der Elche: I have thought about that myself. I'm making the assumption that the translator knows German better than I do, which isn't hard. And I'm also taking into account that there are a lot of German speaking Tolkien fans who would complain if the translation sounded odd or unexpected. I think all translations add and subtract from the original, and similarly movie versions of books add and subtract from the original, so we're a long way from Tolkien's intent here. Still, I'd like to believe that there is some interpretation of the line that makes sense "in universe". | |
| Dec 4, 2021 at 23:07 | comment | added | Kritiker der Elche | It is interesting that we are discussing the German translation, not the English original text which does not allow to make a distinction between "Du" and "Sie / Ihr". The question is therefore about the translator's interpretation: Why did she use "Du"? Are there any hints in Tolkien's book which justifies the use of "Du" instead of "Ihr"? | |
| Dec 4, 2021 at 13:39 | comment | added | RDBury | I like the idea that Gandalf is emphasizing that he "outranks" the Balrog as Maia. Perhaps the idea was to use this show of disrespect to shake the Balrog's confidence. It's also possible I'm putting more thought into this than the translator did, but I like this interpretation so that's what I'm going with. To me, the "shall" is Galdalf's way of casting magic onto the bridge. If the Balrog tried to cross then the spell would cause something to happen to prevent it, and in fact the bridge collapses. You could also interpret it as denying permission, but that wouldn't make the bridge fall. | |
| Dec 4, 2021 at 12:46 | vote | accept | RDBury | ||
| Dec 4, 2021 at 9:06 | history | edited | infinitezero | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 44 characters in body
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| Dec 4, 2021 at 8:39 | history | edited | infinitezero | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 206 characters in body
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| Dec 4, 2021 at 8:24 | history | answered | infinitezero | CC BY-SA 4.0 |